Quest:— What will we do with this life or sort of things like dharma, religion, or constant devout endeavour— what have we achieved either, if we still remain subjugated— if we cannot bring the environment under control! What is your idea of self-governance or liberty?
Beloved the Lord:— I do not understand self-governance as hostility towards the British. By self-governance what I understand is— if we can do whatever should be done in order to keep my own existence sustain, only then true self-governance is achieved. Only when we can establish my own ‘self’ both within and without, I may gain true self-governance. If the British are enemies of that, they will automatically quit— and if they are friends, they will normally be amalgamated with us.
Take an example, if someone in infected with germs of tuberculosis, the doctors try to keep him in good health, and for that, they make necessary arrangements for nutritious diets, fresh air, etceteras. When the patient recovers, they declare— ‘he is out of danger’. Similarly, we also have to regain good health first, and so in order to elevate activity and to push becoming institutions like bank, factory should be established.
Quest:— But when the interests of the British will be hurt, will they not destroy these institutions, the way they have destroyed our textile industry?
Beloved the Lord:— Only we are to blame for whatever has been lost. If we had no faults of our own, nobody could have destroyed them.
Quest:— The British have arms and ammunitions, guns and cannons and aircrafts; they can easily spoil all our efforts. And if we try to manufacture guns and cannons, they will prevent us— what is the way out then?
Beloved the Lord:— If we do anything that operates adversely to being and becoming of the living beings and the world, then that must be crushed; because, it is undoubtedly true that none of us wants to die. We can embrace only such a death that may lead us to the life eternal. If we can invent something or anything, which makes man’s being and becoming essentially unimpaired, then that will be everyone’s interest— what everyone wishes. Nobody will break that to crush; and if anyone does, his living will be no more to live.
Guns and cannons can be the cause of one’s own death if used in unsound health,— if we eat something that we cannot digest, or like a body-builder try to lift weight, then rather than doing any good to our health that will be detrimental. So, first we need education, health, industry and society.
Quest:— Shall we be able to be successful in these sectors before our country get freedom? Take the example of education,— Hiren Dutta organized a system of national education. But he has been rather unsuccessful in his endeavour, how so?
Beloved the Lord:— There is nothing called national or foreign about education; such differentiation is a symptom of diseased state.
Quest:— What, then, is the ideal of education?
Beloved the Lord:— Whatever that is worth knowing has to be acquired according to one’s utmost ability. Languages of different countries have to be learnt, sciences have to be mastered— and not only studied, they have to be realized and materialized in a practical way also.
Quest:— There is a big laboratory at the Presidency College but, why the research going on there has done little in increasing the wealth of the country?
Beloved the Lord:— This is because, doing research and doing a salaried job cannot go together. The research which is carried on with the inspiration of thoughts and the endeavour for solution of what is the necessity of the country, what ensures the well-being of the citizens, how their health, education, prosperity and peace may be enhanced and maintained— is the real research, and verily, this is Aryan Dharma. Scientists of other developed countries exactly do this, and so, even without making any hullabaloo they are truly dhārmik— the performers of dharma.
Quest:— It is said that there is no relation between dharma and science, rather inimical if there is any. Science augments mundane luxury and dharma enunciates renunciation!
Beloved the Lord:— Science itself is the pathfinder of immortality. It is science that shows us— how to remain happy, how to grow and how to remain alive. So, dharma itself beckons science. The philosophy of spiritualism is science. While observing the spirit whatever is there occupying that spirit also becomes visible; and that knowledge is science, that knowledge is spiritualism.
Quest:— Are the sage’s way of knowing and the scientist’s way of knowing the same kind? Of what type are our country’s seers or the persons practicing ascetic austerities? Are they also what we understand as scientists?
Beloved the Lord:— As the scientist’s way of knowing is through observation, so also the sage’s way of knowing. Scientist proceeds through continually analyzing the object, and the sage aiming at the cause investigates that. Hence their perceptions too vary. The perception of the sage comes through sensation and that of the scientist comes through sense organs which are accompanied by inference. When that attitude grows in a scientist, he may become sage.
Quest:— What is the stream of the sage’s attitude?
Beloved the Lord:— If the scientist is a research-man and at the same time a sage, then all the visions that appear before him are through sensation; and if he has the attitude to materialize that physically through research, only then the adjustment of both the observation through sensation and the observation through analysis comes and perfect sensation of things can be acquired. The attitude of a sage means— that he seeks to find out the cause by analyzing his complexes— the complexes which come from the environment,— therefore, his inclination towards the cause is solemn and grave.
Quest:— Well, what, then, is the difference between the sensation and the perception through any particular sense organ?
Beloved the Lord:— The feeling which one gets being partially to some object remaining above that— is called sensation; like, when we feel the shock of electric battery. And another is seeing with eyes, listening with ears— that do not affect our being. The way Kanad, Kekule came to know the dance of atoms was with sensation; so also St. Augustine, Swedenborg and others got such feeling, as I have heard. The realization of a sage is just like that of the glass on which some particular thing can be reflected, and though the glass is tinged by that, it never turns into that.
Quest:— It is seen that the study of science is pursued amply over here in your place,— there is also a research laboratory. If something is ever invented here that is dangerous for the existence of the government, won’t they shut it down at once?
Beloved the Lord:— Any invention that hampers someone’s existence is the servitor of death, if that hampering does not make the being in general all the more unhampered and goads towards good. What is the meaning of government? We, the people, are the government, isn’t so! Besides if we have once invented something, what does it matter if that is shut down? There should be no more problem once we come to know how to bend the iron into our desired shape after heating it.
Quest:— Arrest, even imprisonment or death may be the destiny if that invention is sought to be materialized, but nothing can be done in reality!
Beloved the Lord:— No, that is not so. If I don’t have the least intention to create any hostility with the government, then they will not oppose what I’m doing. Because, what I’m doing is not only for this region but for the whole humanity; therefore opposition will not come. They oppose only when I do something that will hurt the governor, otherwise why will they oppose us? Induced by jealousy and egged on by greed for conquering kingdom Ashok waged only one battle in his lifetime, in which nothing but brutal killing had been established; he didn’t find a place in anyone’s heart. Later he realized his mistake; therefore he had to fight no more battles. The flag of culture what was born by him augmented India’s glory and did much good to the world. Only then did he become the true conqueror— people became indomitable for his existential upkeep, for he was favourable to their existence.
Quest:— Do you then, want to say that subjugation has not restricted our activity in the least?
Beloved the Lord:— We have been crippled not so much by the restriction of our activity resulting from subjugation as by being served, i.e. by getting from others the services for our whatever essential commodities, compared to which the subjugation is potentially far less harmful.
Quest:— Well, how long will it take for us to achieve the real self-governance what you are speaking about?
Beloved the Lord:— Twenty years after we become reformed.
Quest:— And how long will it take for us to be reformed?
Beloved the Lord:— That depends on our activity. As long as we shall be jealous seeing the rise of others, e.g. C. R. Das has become a leader, I couldn’t; as long as such thoughts continue to float in our mind, we will never succeed. First such thinking must depart. Then, in this country we, of different sects, live together; the Vaishnavas have Lord Krishna, Lord Gouranga, The Christians have Jesus, the Muslims have Mohammad. As long as we shall continue to slander them, and as long as we shall not be regardful towards them, the hope of development will remain much distant and hard to achieve.
Quest:— Reformation, then, means changing the mentality of the nation, isn’t it? Should we then abstain from the effort to achieve self-governance until that happens?
Beloved the Lord:— Nothing will be achieved if we plan for achieving self-governance without reformation. We can never get that what we wish to get, if we do not do the way it can be got; therefore, to achieve something the reformation accordant with that is absolutely necessary. And for that wherever whatever adjustment is required should be done. So, to achieve anything the proceeding should in the way making the relevant reformation its basis.
Quest:— All right, it is understood that without achieving the development of society, health, education and industry we can’t be reformed; but if this effort is initiated by hardly one or two persons in few places in this huge nation, then how long will it take to reform the whole nation?
Beloved the Lord:— Though this slows down the pace of work, but if such endeavour becomes successful, then that spreads everywhere; because, it is man’s nature to hold on to success. For instance, one textile mill of guernsey was set up in Pabna; after that several others mushroomed. However to increase mass-strength the centralization of all reformations should be needed.
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